Tim Toberer wrote: 21 Mar 2026 5:13 am
Yes, everything can be relativated and experimented with…. especially once one is an Ace like Bird was.
To do that, I personally would want to play -something like Rhythm Changes- eyes closed, cycling it in 4ths thru all key centers with the bridge, with the “correct” chord qulities.
That is probably a more useful exercise JD. Way more common out in the wild. The exercise I posted has one big draw for me because if you look at the roots of all the chords in a chart like I posted, the notes make up a diminished 7th chord. First row of minor 7 BDFG#, first row of dominants EGBbC# which is the tuning that I use G A# C# E. etc. etc. So you can see why this would appeal to me. I am finding these hidden diminished chords turning up everywhere. The gentleman in the video I posted ( not surprisingly, a student of Pat Martino) has a few videos on diminished harmony which really caught my attention. He created a whole system of chord substitutions based on the diminished concept he calls Dodecaphonics (I looked it up, it means has 12 notes). If you are into Avant Garde jazz from the late 50's early 60s, this is really where it is at. It seems like we share an interest in this diminished thing. It is way-WAY beyond me at this point, but it is something I want to work towards. It doesn't have a lot to relate to Pop or Country whatever that is now Lol. Here it is if you want to fall down a deep rabbit hole.
https://jackzucker.com/dodecaphonics-part-i
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Upper Harmony
While scales build chords, upper harmony is the chords’ way of returning the favor—assuming, of course, tertian harmony (stacked 3rds).
A few years ago I asked about “upper harmony” because my ear suggested there were many different systems at play. Not getting a clear answer, I sat down at a piano (everyone should have some sort of keyboard around!) and realized:
every chord built in 3rds emerges naturally from it. I ended up answering my own question.
On C6th, I have a couple of pedal/lever combinations that effectively put the tuning into that “state”—and simply strumming across it already sounds like music in motion… almost like scoring an aquarium.
Jerry Byrd was known to use a “diatonic” tuning. I’d have to revisit the details, but it reminds me of the famous anecdote: Miles Davis telling Bill Evans during “So What”:
“Play all the white keys”… and when it modulates, “now play all the black keys.”
Diminished
Since we’re talking Coltrane and stacked ii–V movement, I’ll assume we’re mainly in C6th territory (Tim’s setup being a different animal—I’ll get to that).
C6th with an F on string 9 arguably wants a D on the bottom instead of the usual C. That’s not arbitrary: players like Buddy Emmons (Bb6th) and John Hughey / Curly Chalker (C6th) explored this territory.
Why?
Because C6th is
very close to a diminished system.
If you take the root tones on strings 7 (C), 8 (A), 9 (F), and 10 (D) and distribute them across the neck to the same pitch class, you get four repeating positions within the octave—just like diminished chords. The spacing falls into 3, 4, 3, and 2 frets. The “irregular” 4 and 2 still sum to 6, meaning the system wants to equalize into symmetry.
Looking at adjacent string intervals (bottom to top), you get a mix of minor 3rds, major 3rds, and a couple of seconds. Averaging it out gives roughly 3.11 semitones per string step—remarkably close to the pure diminished division of 3.
D.............F............A............C.............E............G.........A............C.............E.........D
| m3rd | M3rd | m3rd | M3rd | m3rd | 2nd | m3rd | M3rd | 2nd |
Two 2nds (+the one resulting between string #1 & #3)
Four m3rds
Three M3rds
That’s why diminished arpeggios fall so naturally on C6th—they trace an almost “S-shaped” path across the strings. The half–whole and whole–half diminished scales become visually obvious: essentially parallel diminished structures offset by one or two frets. Much easier to
see than on piano—and certainly easier than on wind instruments.
Tuning-wise, stacking minor 3rds already pushes limits. Using pedals (like 5 & 6), you quickly run into cumulative intonation issues: small deviations stack up and become unacceptable across octaves. That’s why these changes are typically tuned close to equal temperament.
All of this raises an interesting thought: a fully diminished tuning might actually be more usable than expected—less harsh than stacked major 3rds, and structurally very powerful (a “family of four” chords, symmetry, etc.). I’ve definitely toyed with that idea.
For comparison:
- One chromatic scale → two whole-tone scales
- Whole-tone systems yield stacked major 3rds → harsh in equal temperament
The Alkire tuning was a brilliant concept—nearly unlimited chord access—but often suffers from intonation compromises: either harsh ET or “rounded” intervals that drift out of tune.
Linear Concepts / Systems
Pat Martino’s “Linear Expressions” (sometimes humorously called “minor abrasions”) are valid ideas—as long as we remember: they are
ideas, not music by themselves.
Same with Barry Harris’ 5–4–3–2 approach—approaching chord tones through structured lines. These “linettes” (yes, I’ll keep the word!) are beautiful devices.
So, coming back to this Thread's Subject, THESE are
EXERCISES.
If you listen to proficient players coming out of these systems, they always know exactly where they are—and very quickly move beyond the system, turning it into personal language.
That’s where I part ways a bit with concepts like “OBAIL” (Jeff Newman’s “Oh Boy Am I Lost” for the major blues scale). Even traditional blues players working with 5–6 notes know precisely what each note does against each chord.
Yes, that reduction can be applied to jazz—but only effectively if you
know what’s happening.
In my view, there is no truly compelling “playing your heart out” while being
lost—unless you’re already an artist operating on a very high level.
Put differently:
Not knowing where you are is not a student’s privilege—it’s something only those who know
every corner of the landscape can occasionally get away with.
... J-D.
If it wasn't for you and Fred humoring me, I think it would be crickets on the forum for me Lol. I get alot out of our interactions so Thank You! I think my comment about Equal Temperament wasn't stated well. I was mostly referring to past arguments in other posts about the validity of people using ET, or vice versa people who like sweetened tunings. I used to be really into Celtic music and even built some bagpipes and flutes and this music almost requires Just Intonation. Bagpipes specifically will sound out of tune against the drone if tuned straight up. So I say sweeten if you want to sweeten. It is a cool aspect of steel guitar tuning, but it comes as a tradeoff when you venture into chromatic sounds. It is all just taste kind of like obscure chord substitutions. What sounds right to some people sounds terrible to others. I have no problem with that!